Author Topic: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017  (Read 8419 times)

oakleaflad

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2017, 07:02:55 PM »
Is it a requirement that county league status determine the grade a club plays in? 

Certainly not so in Kerry, where the status is determined by senior, intermediate and junior club championships.  Win your level and you move up (with the exception of the occasional regrading year).  Kerry's county league exists to give non-county players regular games and nothing else it seems as there is no requirement that county men must be available for any league games. 

So why don't other counties adopt the same structure if it so good?

Not only is it not a requirement, it's illegal under GAA rules. Some counties used to, until quite recently, determine championship promotion/relegation through league positions. I know Galway was one.  They were forced to change.
Eh, surely this is nonsense? In Derry if you're relegated from the Senior league you play Intermediate Championship the next year, if promoted the other way you play Senior Chapionship and the same between Intermediate and Junior.  I don't think this is illegal as i'm pretty sure it's done in plenty of other counties?

Note: The only exception is to apply to play senior championship which is very rarely done.

Did a little digging. This is what I based my comment on:

http://connachttribune.ie/major-overhaul-of-county-football-on-the-cards/

It seems Galway were made to change as the Connacht Council found them to be in contravention of the rules. Maybe the Connacht Council were wrong, it's hard to tell from the article.

Strange as from what I can take, how Galway used to be run (and deemed to be against the rules) is currently how things are run in the Tyrone leagues/championships unless i'm missing something?

Throw ball

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2017, 07:30:05 PM »
Funnily as I read it the Armagh championship changed to the format Galway used only a couple of years ago.

Tyroneforsam

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2017, 07:41:41 PM »
Is it a requirement that county league status determine the grade a club plays in? 

Certainly not so in Kerry, where the status is determined by senior, intermediate and junior club championships.  Win your level and you move up (with the exception of the occasional regrading year).  Kerry's county league exists to give non-county players regular games and nothing else it seems as there is no requirement that county men must be available for any league games. 

So why don't other counties adopt the same structure if it so good?

Not only is it not a requirement, it's illegal under GAA rules. Some counties used to, until quite recently, determine championship promotion/relegation through league positions. I know Galway was one.  They were forced to change.
Eh, surely this is nonsense? In Derry if you're relegated from the Senior league you play Intermediate Championship the next year, if promoted the other way you play Senior Chapionship and the same between Intermediate and Junior.  I don't think this is illegal as i'm pretty sure it's done in plenty of other counties?

Note: The only exception is to apply to play senior championship which is very rarely done.

Did a little digging. This is what I based my comment on:

http://connachttribune.ie/major-overhaul-of-county-football-on-the-cards/

It seems Galway were made to change as the Connacht Council found them to be in contravention of the rules. Maybe the Connacht Council were wrong, it's hard to tell from the article.

Strange as from what I can take, how Galway used to be run (and deemed to be against the rules) is currently how things are run in the Tyrone leagues/championships unless i'm missing something?

Pomeroy, the Ulster intermediate champions are the 17th ranked team in Tyrone having competed in the Tyrone intermediate league and championship this year. How can it be that they are expected to compete with a senior team from Kerry, ranked 8/9th for all Ireland honours? Its all wrong if you ask me!

Rossfan

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2017, 08:42:05 PM »
It's an anti Tymoan conspiracy of course, instigated by the "Free State media" :o
2016 - Hurling League Champions, Football League Semi finalists

Ball Hopper

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2017, 09:01:48 PM »
Is it a requirement that county league status determine the grade a club plays in? 

Certainly not so in Kerry, where the status is determined by senior, intermediate and junior club championships.  Win your level and you move up (with the exception of the occasional regrading year).  Kerry's county league exists to give non-county players regular games and nothing else it seems as there is no requirement that county men must be available for any league games. 

So why don't other counties adopt the same structure if it so good?

Not only is it not a requirement, it's illegal under GAA rules. Some counties used to, until quite recently, determine championship promotion/relegation through league positions. I know Galway was one.  They were forced to change.
Eh, surely this is nonsense? In Derry if you're relegated from the Senior league you play Intermediate Championship the next year, if promoted the other way you play Senior Chapionship and the same between Intermediate and Junior.  I don't think this is illegal as i'm pretty sure it's done in plenty of other counties?

Note: The only exception is to apply to play senior championship which is very rarely done.

Did a little digging. This is what I based my comment on:

http://connachttribune.ie/major-overhaul-of-county-football-on-the-cards/

It seems Galway were made to change as the Connacht Council found them to be in contravention of the rules. Maybe the Connacht Council were wrong, it's hard to tell from the article.

Strange as from what I can take, how Galway used to be run (and deemed to be against the rules) is currently how things are run in the Tyrone leagues/championships unless i'm missing something?

Pomeroy, the Ulster intermediate champions are the 17th ranked team in Tyrone having competed in the Tyrone intermediate league and championship this year. How can it be that they are expected to compete with a senior team from Kerry, ranked 8/9th for all Ireland honours? Its all wrong if you ask me!

Except Kenmare are not a senior club...league position does not determine club status.  This part seems hard to grasp for some reason.

The only way to become senior is to win the intermediate championship.  Occasionally a regrading year will prevent the winners moving up, but it is rare.

The Kenmare District team that played in the senior championship final included Kenmare Shamrocks, Templenoe and Tuosist clubs.

Tyroneforsam

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2017, 09:08:52 PM »
It's an anti Tymoan conspiracy of course, instigated by the "Free State media" :o

Any chance of borrowing the big yellow bus for the all Ireland semi. It'll be the only all Ireland series trip it'll make.

Zulu

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2017, 11:06:09 PM »
Quote
The fact Kerry are dominating at intermediate and junior but not at senior just goes to prove that they have the right system
Really? While intermediate and junior titles are lovely to win for those clubs and players it doesn't take away the fact that senior football be it county or club is number one in Kerry and If I was Kerry man I would be asking why it's going into 21st year since a Kerry club won a senior All Ireland.

Not sure what point you're trying to make there. Kerry haven't won the senior club recently because they haven't had the best senior club team in Ireland recently. That's no reflection on whether their club season is structured well, it's a reflection of where their best club stands nationally. Their system is excellent, pushing 4 teams from intermediate up to senior and 4 from junior up to intermediate only serves to dilute all three competitions and will have no effect on whether their senior champions are good enough to win an All Ireland.

Zulu

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2017, 11:11:54 PM »
But Kerry have one of the best systems which provides plenty of competitive games for all their teams. I'm not sure if Clare have 16 senior club football teams but any county the size of Kerry with 16 senior club teams would just mean about half of them play in a competition they'll rarely win or rarely get relegated from. Kerry's senior championship, by virtue of having no deadwood, means it's ultra competitive as are the competitions below. Rather than complain about it, perhaps others should adopt a similar system?

There are a few reasons. But the most obvious one is that there are not enough weekends in the year. If so player from an intermediate club can also play senior championship with his 'division/amalgamation', then a county board can not fix senior and intermediate championships on the same weekend. Club fixtures are already a joke without adding another layer of complexity.

It suits Kerry, they obviously make it work somehow. I couldn't ever speak for other counties, but I know that it would be completely unworkable in my own, where football and hurling get an equal billing.

Cork have university and divisional teams and they are the biggest dual county in Ireland. They have senior, premier, intermediate and a couple of junior levels as far as I know and many of their divisional championships are taken very seriously so I don't see how the dual argument stands up. All counties should look to have more competitive leagues and more streamlined championships which Kerry are managing to do.

But only guarantee their players 2 championship games. Club players don't want to go back to straight knock out for championship.

Reiterating my point, the fixture calendar is already a mess without making it more complex for fixture makers. If HQ ever get around to properly sorting it out from above then this discussion would be worth having. I'm not doubting the merits from a competitiveness point of view

True, clubs don't want straight knockout but the group systems can be poor and problematic for club fixtures too. There's lots that could be done to straighten out the fixtures but the will is not there from the clubs themselves. However, the Kerry system is still far better than most I'm aware of and importantly they seem to take league games seriously.

Captain Obvious

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2017, 11:29:33 PM »
Quote
The fact Kerry are dominating at intermediate and junior but not at senior just goes to prove that they have the right system
Really? While intermediate and junior titles are lovely to win for those clubs and players it doesn't take away the fact that senior football be it county or club is number one in Kerry and If I was Kerry man I would be asking why it's going into 21st year since a Kerry club won a senior All Ireland.

Not sure what point you're trying to make there. Kerry haven't won the senior club recently because they haven't had the best senior club team in Ireland recently. That's no reflection on whether their club season is structured well, it's a reflection of where their best club stands nationally. Their system is excellent, pushing 4 teams from intermediate up to senior and 4 from junior up to intermediate only serves to dilute all three competitions and will have no effect on whether their senior champions are good enough to win an All Ireland.

Twenty years is more than just recently. In that time three different clubs from Dublin and Galway won the senior All Ireland,two from Mayo and clubs from Roscommon,Derry,Antrim have won one All Ireland.

The point i was trying to make was if Kerry have right system as you claim then a county as successful as Kerry in football should be producing at least one senior club All Ireland winner the last two decades.

Zulu

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2017, 11:43:31 PM »
Why? Kerry senior club teams have been very competitive in the All Ireland series so their system isn't producing poor teams just ones that haven't won an All Ireland. I don't think winning club All Irelands is a reflection on the quality of your competition formats it's simply a reflection of the quality of your champions compared to other counties. Are you arguing that Kerry senior champions are falling short in the All Ireland series because they have too few clubs in their own senior championship?

Captain Obvious

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2017, 11:59:06 PM »
Why? Kerry senior club teams have been very competitive in the All Ireland series so their system isn't producing poor teams just ones that haven't won an All Ireland. I don't think winning club All Irelands is a reflection on the quality of your competition formats it's simply a reflection of the quality of your champions compared to other counties. Are you arguing that Kerry senior champions are falling short in the All Ireland series because they have too few clubs in their own senior championship?
Just checked there now its ten years since a Kerry club reached the All Ireland senior final so its not just winning it their having trouble with but reaching finals as well.

I'm arguing the current Kerry club system has increased their chances of winning intermediate and junior All Irelands and the opposite at senior level.

Ball Hopper

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2017, 12:10:18 AM »
Why? Kerry senior club teams have been very competitive in the All Ireland series so their system isn't producing poor teams just ones that haven't won an All Ireland. I don't think winning club All Irelands is a reflection on the quality of your competition formats it's simply a reflection of the quality of your champions compared to other counties. Are you arguing that Kerry senior champions are falling short in the All Ireland series because they have too few clubs in their own senior championship?
Just checked there now its ten years since a Kerry club reached the All Ireland senior final so its not just winning it their having trouble with but reaching finals as well.

I'm arguing the current Kerry club system has increased their chances of winning intermediate and junior All Irelands and the opposite at senior level.

So Kerry have the best average footballers, but no great ones?  Is that what you are saying?

Zulu

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2017, 12:38:20 AM »
Why? Kerry senior club teams have been very competitive in the All Ireland series so their system isn't producing poor teams just ones that haven't won an All Ireland. I don't think winning club All Irelands is a reflection on the quality of your competition formats it's simply a reflection of the quality of your champions compared to other counties. Are you arguing that Kerry senior champions are falling short in the All Ireland series because they have too few clubs in their own senior championship?
Just checked there now its ten years since a Kerry club reached the All Ireland senior final so its not just winning it their having trouble with but reaching finals as well.

I'm arguing the current Kerry club system has increased their chances of winning intermediate and junior All Irelands and the opposite at senior level.

So what about it hinders their senior clubs? Their format means there are less teams, particularly in senior, who to make up the numbers. The only change they could make to their senior championship format would be to add intermediate teams and you are saying that would improve their ability to win an All Ireland?

Lone Shark

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2017, 02:31:50 AM »
Just checked there now its ten years since a Kerry club reached the All Ireland senior final so its not just winning it their having trouble with but reaching finals as well.

I'm arguing the current Kerry club system has increased their chances of winning intermediate and junior All Irelands and the opposite at senior level.

Their lack of a senior club AI is nothing to do with a system, and only betrays your lack of understanding of Kerry football. The true strength of Kerry football is that the game is strong in every corner of the county, and while I'm not sure how many clubs they have, even the smallest junior club imaginable tends to have a decent structure, good coaches, and a clear pathway for players to develop to the best of their potential, via the divisional system. Their most ordinary junior sides would be middling intermediate in most counties.

That same system handicaps them in terms of providing a senior All Ireland contender - ten of the last twenty Kerry SFC winners were divisional sides, which means that 10 of the last 20 Kerry contenders in the All Ireland club race came in on the back of not actually winning a county title.

I'm sure if their main aim was to produce All Ireland club winners they might do things differently, but they have other goals that supercede that by some margin.

westbound

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Re: All-Ireland Club Championship Fixtures Jan-Feb-March 2017
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2017, 10:07:36 AM »
Just checked there now its ten years since a Kerry club reached the All Ireland senior final so its not just winning it their having trouble with but reaching finals as well.

I'm arguing the current Kerry club system has increased their chances of winning intermediate and junior All Irelands and the opposite at senior level.

Their lack of a senior club AI is nothing to do with a system, and only betrays your lack of understanding of Kerry football. The true strength of Kerry football is that the game is strong in every corner of the county, and while I'm not sure how many clubs they have, even the smallest junior club imaginable tends to have a decent structure, good coaches, and a clear pathway for players to develop to the best of their potential, via the divisional system. Their most ordinary junior sides would be middling intermediate in most counties.

That same system handicaps them in terms of providing a senior All Ireland contender - ten of the last twenty Kerry SFC winners were divisional sides, which means that 10 of the last 20 Kerry contenders in the All Ireland club race came in on the back of not actually winning a county title.

I'm sure if their main aim was to produce All Ireland club winners they might do things differently, but they have other goals that supercede that by some margin.

Finally, some sense on the matter!!!

The Kerry system has been in place long before the AI club series was introduced for intermediate and junior clubs. The system was not introduced by the Kerry county board to help kerry clubs rack up junior and intermediate club titles. It is a method to improve the general standard of club footballer throughout the county and therefore increase the pick of players who might be at inter-county standard. The aim is to improve the Kerry county team's chance of winning All Irelands, not to increase the chances of winning intermediate and junior club all irelands.

I completely agree that a by-product of the system is that Kerry clubs will win more intermediate and junior all irelands. But the Kerry county board are doing nothing wrong here.

I have said for years that the kerry system is the best system to improve the general standard of football in a county and should be implemented in every county. However, a lot of local politics would mean that amalgamated/divisional sides would not be voted for in several counties.