Author Topic: New Down talent.  (Read 20794 times)

Brick Tamlin

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2014, 02:14:04 PM »
No. Couldn't do it when it mattered most for his club in championship final.
Id be expecting an intercounty player to show up in an intermediate final or at intermediate level. He didn't.
Has all the ingredients, but there have been several Ryan O'Hares in Down throughout the years.
If he does the business on a regular basis against the top defenders in Down football then yeah id say he deserves a shot.

Pauld123 you have named some serious lightweight players there.
On another note, James McCartan by and large had the best players on the panel. Some guys you named to backbone the future teams haven't even proven they're up to it yet at intercounty level. Jury still out on a lot of them and also question marks over others ye have named. Ye just cant come in and dismantle any semblance of a team that Wee James built and decide to bin a load of players ffs. Potential is one thing, delivering on it is a completely different thing altogether.
You my friend are romanticising about some players because what they might have done a few years ago at underage/school level and also what you see the odd time for their clubs (against questionable opposition) in a lot of cases.

PAULD123

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2014, 03:34:34 PM »
Brick, many of those players are not huge men, that is true. But we don't have any Michael Murphys or Kieran Donaghys. That is the best talent in the county as I see it. I would be opposed to leaving a good small player on the bench for the sake of a less talented player just because he was a big lad. And McComiskey seemed to get on OK against the big defenders of Cork in the All-Ireland final.

Also Mooney and Clarke are not light-weight, Ryan Johnson is not short, Mallon is not lightweight, and Devlin is bigger than Mark Poland.

As for proving themselves at inter-county football - haven't you just set up a catch 22 requirement:
  • They haven't been given a chance to prove themselves
  • and so haven't proved themselves
  • and because they haven't proved themselves
  • they shouldn't be given a chance to prove themselves!!!

But they certainly have proven themselves at club level and I have named some of the top performers in our club game. Often these lads are out-performing the county players who have established themselves.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 03:46:34 PM by PAULD123 »

Brick Tamlin

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2014, 04:09:30 PM »
I never said they weren't given a chance to prove themselves. A lot of them were given chances, and to be fair haven't shone as brightly as ye would hope.
Also I am in no way advocating physique over skill. Still remains though that a good biggun will be more useful than a good wean.
Only time will tell if they can cut the mustard.

downup

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2014, 11:05:17 AM »
I went to a few County U21 matches this year and last year and unfortunately these lads that have been mentioned just did not count against other county players at their own age level in these games. Maybe Mc Corry can get more out of them but for me they suit club football but are just not up to it at county level. I agree that skill is vital but it takes a certain type of smallish player to be able to cut it at county level and keep taking the hits whilst also being able to be composed on the ball and play their best football. The jury is out on this regard but as I say maybe Mc Corry can work something.

Down Follower

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2014, 04:37:56 PM »
Regeneration is always flexible. With Clarke/Fitzpatrick and hopefully McComiskey back we are going back to the players we had 4-5 years ago. However, with Coulter/Hughes/Rodgers etc all spending less time on the field of play, new blood is needed. We havent really had a settled team since 2011/12 when were regularly getting to Croke Park. Since then its been some players out/some in/injuries/retirements etc etc.
McCorry is not there for a quick fix (I hope). We will be competitive straight away, I think thats a given. How succesful we will be depends on the 'New Down Talent'. There is always talent in Down, it takes something else to turn that into a good intercounty player.

PAULD123

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2014, 09:47:42 AM »
I went to a few County U21 matches this year and last year and unfortunately these lads that have been mentioned just did not count against other county players at their own age level in these games. Maybe Mc Corry can get more out of them but for me they suit club football but are just not up to it at county level. I agree that skill is vital but it takes a certain type of smallish player to be able to cut it at county level and keep taking the hits whilst also being able to be composed on the ball and play their best football. The jury is out on this regard but as I say maybe Mc Corry can work something.

Our U21 setup has been a disaster for several years now. I don't think you can judge players when they have been thrown together for a few weeks and maybe only play one match. It is hardly the most cohesive squad. Club performance is a far better indicator because that is a cohesive regular squad. As for performances, Jerome Johnson has shown pretty well in the county colours when given a chance. Ryan Johnson was influential against Tyrone then promptly dumped, Mallon proved himself well enough in the league, Marty Clarke and McComiskey have very much proved themselves as inter-county footballers. Mooney hasn't been here since he was 18 so hardly fair to ask what he has done in county colours but is a professional athlete.

Some of the others need to be developed but is the theory that unless a player arrives better than the much older player in the team he should just be dispensed with? That is a bit short-sighted. I remember Miceal Magill's first game for Down. He had a shocker. But he went on to win an All-Ireland and an All-star. But if we worked on some of the basis I have heard here then Brendan McKernan would still have been our corner back in 1994.

Mourne Rover

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2014, 01:15:33 PM »
PaulD, most of the points you make are reasonable but your suggestion that Ryan Johnston was `promptly dumped' after the Tyrone replay is a strange way of putting it. He actually flew off on a foreign holiday, which may well have been for family reasons but is not what is expected of a county footballer in the middle of the championship season. He was therefore unavailable for the Leitrim qualifier but returned for the Kildare defeat. Johnston clearly has potential, and he can be expected to get a run of matches under McCorry.


rosskarr

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2014, 02:11:13 PM »
The usual close season drivel and speculation.

PAULD123

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2014, 07:49:18 AM »
The usual close season drivel and speculation.

Bit of a pointless post there. Of course it is speculation. This is a forum for opinions so clearly everything said here is just opinions.

As regarding Ryan Johnston, what I really meant was that he really helped turn the first game in Omagh and then was dumped back on the bench for the start of the replay. I think he had proven that he deserved a start.

But I do agree that a full forward line of Laverty - J. Johnston - McComiskey would look very small, although it would also have a lot of speed and skill. However if Mooney plays full forward then he is capable of fielding decent ball. And a half forward line with Marty Clarke and Ryan Johnston would have decent height to support the midfield. Currently we have Laverty, Poland and O'Hare in the team and they are all small.

I don't think Madine has quite done enough, but then in fairness I also don't think he has been utilised properly as a fielding full forward laying balls off to incoming corner forwards. Laverty is used to field, which seems crazy to me. It should be the other way around. So I would hope that Madine could be made into a genuine full-forward but if so, I think he would be the traditional type.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 07:51:21 AM by PAULD123 »

our_fella

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2014, 09:36:08 AM »
Is it just me, or do Down seem to be void of "big men"? Seen back of Irish News yday where Armagh have recalled few players who left panel, who are all 6ft+ and can handle themselves. Same with the new men on the panel it seems.  Are we holding too many wee men on our squad?

rosskarr

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2014, 09:46:11 AM »
The usual close season drivel and speculation.

Bit of a pointless post there. Of course it is speculation. This is a forum for opinions so clearly everything said here is just opinions.

As regarding Ryan Johnston, what I really meant was that he really helped turn the first game in Omagh and then was dumped back on the bench for the start of the replay. I think he had proven that he deserved a start.

But I do agree that a full forward line of Laverty - J. Johnston - McComiskey would look very small, although it would also have a lot of speed and skill. However if Mooney plays full forward then he is capable of fielding decent ball. And a half forward line with Marty Clarke and Ryan Johnston would have decent height to support the midfield. Currently we have Laverty, Poland and O'Hare in the team and they are all small.

I don't think Madine has quite done enough, but then in fairness I also don't think he has been utilised properly as a fielding full forward laying balls off to incoming corner forwards. Laverty is used to field, which seems crazy to me. It should be the other way around. So I would hope that Madine could be made into a genuine full-forward but if so, I think he would be the traditional type.
I suppose you're right but just a bit of frustration at our lack or progress for 20 odd years bar the
the unexpected run to the Final in 2010. Our Senior Club champions have done nothing since Burren in the 80's and this year was no different. Depressing stuff all round.

whitegoodman

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2014, 12:35:44 PM »
From what I remember Mooney always played in the half forward line which I think suits him better.  A half forward line of R Johnston (if he isn't on holiday that wk) Clarke and Mooney would provide pace, size, power and athleticism on the wings and the playmaker in the centre.  Mooney and Johnston would also offer an option for kick outs given they both are over 6ft and have great leaps.

I would always be of the opinion that you can only afford to have 2 "small" forwards in your team.  That would mean that two from Laverty, J Johnston, O Hare and McComiskey would play depending on who is showing the best form and producing the most scores.  That leaves a target man which we have struggled to produce since Benny was in his pomp.  I agree with PaulD that Madine has not quite been the answer but he is still young.  The trouble is what are the other options?  Eamon Toner? I am struggling to think of stand over full fowards in Down club football.

The other problem McCorry will need to solve is the full back line.  We desperately need to find corner backs and a stand out full back.  Niall Brannigan is a great wee corner back but is he too small?possibly.  Is he too rash, probably.  Darren O Hagan is also a great corner back when fit but the problem is that's not often enough. If you could clone Dan Gordon he would probably be ideal for FB and midfield but the need is probably greater at midfield at the min.  The other options at FB have mostly been tried with varying degrees of success but none have ultimately been the answer.

Half back is fine with plenty of options with Garvey, Rooney, Turley, C McCartan, Boyle, B McArdle and being viable options.  I'd go with Gordon and McKernan at midfield as I think McKernans most consistent year was two years ago at midfield when he had the freedom to play his own game without having to think about his defensive responsibility.

Shamrocks Gaelp

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2014, 02:02:40 PM »
                 Shane Harrison


  Gearard          Benny             Darren
McGovern       McArdle         O'Hagan


   Niall                Aidan            Kevin
McEvoy              Carr          McKernan


              Dan               Conor
            Gordon            Toner


   Caolan           Marty             Ryan
  Mooney         Clarke         Johnston

 Donal             Eamonn         Conor
O'Hare              Toner           Laverty

During the first page of this thread, I took the liberty to create this team that I am hopeful will be te starting line up next year. However, there are lots of queries. Firstly, the goalkeeping battle is more than likely a straight up fight between Harrison and Cunningham, but Steven Kane could be thrown into the equation. Next, the full back line is the hardest to decide. Gearard McGovern is a strong, good ball carrying full back but he might not have the pace for corner back and he doesnt have much experience outside of club or U21, but he did win Queens freshers player of the year a while ago. The halfback line is also odd, but McEvoy has to be an automatic choice. In midfield, I was impressed by Conor Toners passing and ball carrying during the championship, but he wasn't putstanding for the club. Dan Gordon has to be there as the catcher whilst either toner or Mckernan can bring in the running and playmaking aspect. Lastly, both half and full forward lines are hard. Having to exclude both Conor Maginn and Poland will be hard and no one is sure whether Clarke will commit. However Ryan Johnston has to be in there as a link man between half back and half forward, maybe deployed as a sweeper. Also, O'Hare can no longer be an automatic choice, as he has the tendency to slip in and out of games, but on his St he is a live wire forward. Full forward is a real task. Niall Madine fits the bill and he has good patches last year but wasn't great during the Ulster championship. Eamonn Toner looked like the only player to scare the kilcoo full back line in the final and he needs a shot with that squad.

wobbller

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2014, 03:15:01 PM »
                 Shane Harrison


  Gearard          Benny             Darren
McGovern       McArdle         O'Hagan


   Niall                Aidan            Kevin
McEvoy              Carr          McKernan


              Dan               Conor
            Gordon            Toner


   Caolan           Marty             Ryan
  Mooney         Clarke         Johnston

 Donal             Eamonn         Conor
O'Hare              Toner           Laverty

During the first page of this thread, I took the liberty to create this team that I am hopeful will be te starting line up next year. However, there are lots of queries. Firstly, the goalkeeping battle is more than likely a straight up fight between Harrison and Cunningham, but Steven Kane could be thrown into the equation. Next, the full back line is the hardest to decide. Gearard McGovern is a strong, good ball carrying full back but he might not have the pace for corner back and he doesnt have much experience outside of club or U21, but he did win Queens freshers player of the year a while ago. The halfback line is also odd, but McEvoy has to be an automatic choice. In midfield, I was impressed by Conor Toners passing and ball carrying during the championship, but he wasn't putstanding for the club. Dan Gordon has to be there as the catcher whilst either toner or Mckernan can bring in the running and playmaking aspect. Lastly, both half and full forward lines are hard. Having to exclude both Conor Maginn and Poland will be hard and no one is sure whether Clarke will commit. However Ryan Johnston has to be in there as a link man between half back and half forward, maybe deployed as a sweeper. Also, O'Hare can no longer be an automatic choice, as he has the tendency to slip in and out of games, but on his St he is a live wire forward. Full forward is a real task. Niall Madine fits the bill and he has good patches last year but wasn't great during the Ulster championship. Eamonn Toner looked like the only player to scare the kilcoo full back line in the final and he needs a shot with that squad.
  Not bad to start with if all these men commit.

elk

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Re: New Down talent.
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2014, 09:12:47 PM »
donal o hare might kick the odd free but he doesnt cotribute enough from play. I think the likes of cory  quinn or donnagh mc aleenan  are better options for the future of down